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 Wiring Guru required, Overdrive wiring.
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Mr A.the Hun

United Kingdom
48 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  16:04:10  Show Profile  Send Mr A.the Hun a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Hello Sunbeams, I hope everyone is well.
Series 3, O/drive, 1725cc Alpine engine.

I own 6161PO which was lovingly restored by Neil Cridland about 20 years ago, and then subsequently 'modified' (but sadly butchered in some cases) by later owners. However it does run beautifully.

I am busy trying to undo aforementioned treatment, and return things to standard, or sympathetic upgrade status. But the overdrive wiring has me stumped.

It works correctly in so far as it protects itself from engagement in 1st, 2nd and reverse, great.
The stalk (not the correct one, but it will do) is of the switch/ two position, type.
The stalk indicates the reverse of what is actually happening (direct drive = O/D selected, and vice versa.).

All the wires run through ONE terminal of the relay, (so the relay is just a connector block).
The Relay says 6RA but has an extra c3 terminal, but I have a spare which is correct, that I will use.

Only ONE wire disappears underneath towards the gearbox.

Finally the question:
Is it possible that someone has made it work by connecting the Solenoid to the gearbox isolator and then to Earth? Thus only requiring one wire from the gearbox to the relay.

Obviously I will be able to check by poking around underneath the gearbox, but I'm still waiting for my new ramps to arrive. And I thought one of our Gurus might know if the theory is correct.

Thank you.

p.s.
Just out of interest, the dealer I bought it from had the Overdrive rebuilt at great expense earlier this year by Hardy Engineering, who only added the note - "O/D switch upside down".

pruyter

Netherlands
309 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  11:24:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The overdrives switches (the stalk) is handed and if fitted at the other side of the steering column it switches upside down, which means that when you want to engage overdrive you have to put the stalk down instead of putting it up as it is supposed to work.
I have never understood why Rootes put the stalk up to series IV at the wrong side of the steering column, because putting it there means that the indicator stalk is really at the wrong side of the column. Finally when the Alpines series V and the Rapier series V came on the market Rootes showed to have understood that they made a mistake in the past.
When I bought my Rapier Series IV one of the first things I did was changing the positions of both the indicator stalk and the overdrive stalk. Regarding the indicator stalk ( not handed) nothing changed but regarding the overdrive stalk it did and so I have to remember to put the stalk down when I want to engage the overdrive.
By the way if you want to fit the right overdrive stalk I saw yesterday on Ebay that there is offered one and I mean the real thing with 3 wires!

Regarding your question: in principle this is possible but.....when the relay acts only as a connector how is it then possible that the gaearbox switch protects the overdrive being engaged when first or second year is engaged? The gearbox switch protecst against reverse gear and overdrive being switched on at the same time. The real original relay has connectors c 1,
c 2, c 4, w 1 and w 2.

Regards,

Peter

Edited by - pruyter on 18 Nov 2020 12:48:33
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Mr A.the Hun

United Kingdom
48 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  14:29:51  Show Profile  Send Mr A.the Hun a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pruyter

The overdrives switches (the stalk) is handed and if fitted at the other side of the steering column it switches upside down, which means that when you want to engage overdrive you have to put the stalk down instead of putting it up as it is supposed to work.
I have never understood why Rootes put the stalk up to series IV at the wrong side of the steering column, because putting it there means that the indicator stalk is really at the wrong side of the column. Finally when the Alpines series V and the Rapier series V came on the market Rootes showed to have understood that they made a mistake in the past.
When I bought my Rapier Series IV one of the first things I did was changing the positions of both the indicator stalk and the overdrive stalk. Regarding the indicator stalk ( not handed) nothing changed but regarding the overdrive stalk it did and so I have to remember to put the stalk down when I want to engage the overdrive.
By the way if you want to fit the right overdrive stalk I saw yesterday on Ebay that there is offered one and I mean the real thing with 3 wires!

Regarding your question: in principle this is possible but.....when the relay acts only as a connector how is it then possible that the gaearbox switch protects the overdrive being engaged when first or second year is engaged? The gearbox switch protecst against reverse gear and overdrive being switched on at the same time. The real original relay has connectors c 1,
c 2, c 4, w 1 and w 2.

Regards,

Peter


Dank u wel Peter,

My overdrive stalk is a straight and short stalk, so I don't know what it is from, and if they are normally on the other side, that might explain it working the wrong way round.

I sat in the car with the ignition on, trying every single combination of gear change whilst listening to the overdrive actuator. It only engaged when in 3rd. or 4th? And because you mentioned it I have just been and tried it again, thinking I may have deluded myself, but it definitely only engages in 3rd. and 4th. and disengages itself everywhere else?

The three wire switch, as I understand it (which means nothing), is for the later overdrive set up which has the self cancelling stalk and also uses a different relay, according to my manual, (with the C4 terminal), but I'm happy to be corrected.
Whereas, I believe (still means nothing), mine could have the earlier system, a two position on/off stalk and a relay with only C1 C2 W1 W2. Incidentally my car had both types of relay attached to the firewall next to each other, with all the wires attached to one terminal of the 5 connector relay!

Maybe, my car has a lash up of different components with a mix of the two types fitted?

Once my ramps arrive I'll get properly underneath and try to figure out what is going on.

Thank you again, I really appreciate your help, as it's harder trying to undo somebody else' 'creative engineering', than just starting from scratch, especially when it's all new to me..

The mystery continues.

Best regards, Terry
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pruyter

Netherlands
309 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  15:37:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Terry,

Indeed your Rapier has originally a relay with C1, C2, W1 and W2 connectors which means that a stalk with two wires is used.
The later Rapiers used a relay with 5 connectors and a stalk with 3 wires and that results in a car which doesn't make it possible to engage overdrive when the car is in either first, second or reverse gear.
This latter version is in my opinion preferable, but if you are after originality then you should use a relay with 4 connectors and a stalk with two wires.
And yes it seems that your Rapier has a blend of two systems and a kind of "homemade" electrical circuit.
Regarding the position of the overdrive stalk: Rootes wanted a system which made it possible to use both the gearstick and the overdrive stalk with the same hand with the result that when you use the gear stick while you want to use the indicator stalk at the same time a problem occurs meaning that this is impossible.
If I were you I should choose for one system as Rootes had designed it.
So the question is: what is more important, originality or protection?

Best regards,

Peter
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Mr A.the Hun

United Kingdom
48 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  16:23:13  Show Profile  Send Mr A.the Hun a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pruyter

Hi Terry,

Indeed your Rapier has originally a relay with C1, C2, W1 and W2 connectors which means that a stalk with two wires is used.
The later Rapiers used a relay with 5 connectors and a stalk with 3 wires and that results in a car which doesn't make it possible to engage overdrive when the car is in either first, second or reverse gear.
This latter version is in my opinion preferable, but if you are after originality then you should use a relay with 4 connectors and a stalk with two wires.
And yes it seems that your Rapier has a blend of two systems and a kind of "homemade" electrical circuit.
Regarding the position of the overdrive stalk: Rootes wanted a system which made it possible to use both the gearstick and the overdrive stalk with the same hand with the result that when you use the gear stick while you want to use the indicator stalk at the same time a problem occurs meaning that this is impossible.
If I were you I should choose for one system as Rootes had designed it.
So the question is: what is more important, originality or protection?

Best regards,

Peter



Thanks Peter,

I can't be too precious about originality, as my car left the factory without overdrive, and it has had an alpine engine for more than 30 years. But I would like it to be a recognisable Rootes system, nicely installed.

By the sounds of it I should settle on the 3 position, 3 wire stalk and the 5 terminal relay, as I like having a slightly more idiot proof gear change.

All the best.

Terry
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Commerlad

United Kingdom
45 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  19:59:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, It sounds as though someone has really ballsed this up but I believe I may have figured out what they have done. The feed from the fuse unit goes to the gearbox inhibitor switch so only works on 3 /4 from this they may have directly fed the selector stalk from the inhibitor switch which then feeds the overdrive solenoid merely using the relay as a single terminal choc block to join the wires.(to work the overdrive on off) which in turn is earthed through the overdrive-gearbox-engine-engine earth lead.

Sometimes I think laterally, but then I have to get up!
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Commerlad

United Kingdom
45 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  20:14:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Or they could have gone feed to stalk to gearbox inhibitor switch to relay terminal to overdrive solenoid then earth. Either of these 2 options would work as described the latter being the easiest to wire up for an untrained mechanic with limited knowledge of the correct electrical system. As a note I did 8 years at a wiring factory that supplied Ryton (In it's Peugeot years).

Sometimes I think laterally, but then I have to get up!

Edited by - Commerlad on 18 Nov 2020 20:21:44
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Mr A.the Hun

United Kingdom
48 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  20:20:23  Show Profile  Send Mr A.the Hun a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Commerlad

Ok, It sounds as though someone has really ballsed this up but I believe I may have figured out what they have done. The feed from the fuse unit goes to the gearbox inhibitor switch so only works on 3 /4 from this they may have directly fed the selector stalk from the inhibitor switch which then feeds the overdrive solenoid merely using the relay as a single terminal choc block to join the wires.(to work the overdrive on off) which in turn is earthed through the overdrive-gearbox-engine-engine earth lead.

Sometimes I think laterally, but then I have to get up!


Thank you for putting the old grey cells to work on my behalf. Even I can understand your explanation, brilliant. Unfortunately, and I really hope I'm wrong, wouldn't this require two wires to disappear off underneath the car. I can only find one.
If my new ramps ever arrive, I'm going to have a good ferret around and see if there are any more wires. Thanks again, I really appreciate the effort.
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Commerlad

United Kingdom
45 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  20:33:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Or feed to stalk to relay terminal to gearbox inhibitor to ovrdrive solenoid.

Remember that the solenoid is at the lower back of the overdrive and the inhibitor is upper front of actual gearbox (by the gearstick mount)

Sometimes I think laterally, but then I have to get up!
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Mr A.the Hun

United Kingdom
48 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  21:21:33  Show Profile  Send Mr A.the Hun a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Commerlad

Or feed to stalk to relay terminal to gearbox inhibitor to ovrdrive solenoid.

Remember that the solenoid is at the lower back of the overdrive and the inhibitor is upper front of actual gearbox (by the gearstick mount)

Sometimes I think laterally, but then I have to get up!


Brilliant, thanks again. I will need to try and find a suitable 3 position stalk. Do you know of any suitable alternatives, as I’m fairly sure original stalks are made of unobtainium..
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pruyter

Netherlands
309 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  06:32:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Terry,

as I have mentioned before there is a stalk offered on Ebay,
The item number is 143839865884
Right now the highest bid is 26 GBP and there are 3 days and something like 12 hours to go before the bidding is ended.

Regards,

Peter
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Mr A.the Hun

United Kingdom
48 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  06:58:05  Show Profile  Send Mr A.the Hun a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pruyter

Hi Terry,

as I have mentioned before there is a stalk offered on Ebay,
The item number is 143839865884
Right now the highest bid is 26 GBP and there are 3 days and something like 12 hours to go before the bidding is ended.

Regards,

Peter






Hello Peter,
Yes, I wasn’t ignoring your very good information, and I am watching it. But having spoken to Mike Langley (club parts God) it is liable to be quite expensive. And having just been forced to retire early (from my career in the Netherlands funnily enough) thanks to the Bat Flu situation, I don’t have limitless funds. So am anticipating possible disappointment, and was hoping to be armed with information on suitable alternatives.
Again thank you very much.
Regards Terry
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pruyter

Netherlands
309 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  10:28:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Terry,

ah that explains the Dutch words you used to say thank you!
Yes Mike is right the prices of this stalks are ridiculous!
But you could do with the stalk with two wires, the most important thing is to protect the overdrive of being engaged when reversing the car.
Never ever engage it when in reverse, because by doing so you certainly destroy the overdrive! Engaging the overdrive in first of second gear is no problem at all.

Regards,

Peter
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Commerlad

United Kingdom
45 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  15:30:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The thing about engaging in reverse is that it is the set up of the gearbox inhibitor switch that determines wether it will or will not do so. (Irrespective of the use of the relay as that is only there due to the use of the passing contact on off stalk, as opposed to the one you are using which is a continuous solid on or off type switch)

To engage in reverse it will have to have been set so badly that the gearbox inhibitor switch plunger is still depressed by touching the gear selector even when it is furthest away from it (Something that I think is not even possible)

Only by completely bypassing the gearbox inhibitor switch is this a real likelyhood. (Or some dumb git has wired up to the reverse switch on the other side by mistake, but then they cannot have the overdrive working in forwards or reverse lights either)

Sometimes I think laterally, but then I have to get up!
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Mr A.the Hun

United Kingdom
48 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  20:15:31  Show Profile  Send Mr A.the Hun a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Commerlad

The thing about engaging in reverse is that it is the set up of the gearbox inhibitor switch that determines wether it will or will not do so. (Irrespective of the use of the relay as that is only there due to the use of the passing contact on off stalk, as opposed to the one you are using which is a continuous solid on or off type switch)

To engage in reverse it will have to have been set so badly that the gearbox inhibitor switch plunger is still depressed by touching the gear selector even when it is furthest away from it (Something that I think is not even possible)

Only by completely bypassing the gearbox inhibitor switch is this a real likelyhood. (Or some dumb git has wired up to the reverse switch on the other side by mistake, but then they cannot have the overdrive working in forwards or reverse lights either)

Sometimes I think laterally, but then I have to get up!



Yes, I see what you mean, thank you. And just to clarify the basics, is the correct stalk (with 3 positions and 3 wires) a momentary switch that is always sprung loaded back to the centre position?
Regards
Terry
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pruyter

Netherlands
309 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  20:39:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The reason why I mentioned the consequences of engaging reverse while the overdrive is engaged is that I have seen two times what happens when somebody has done that. Such things don't happen because people are stupid those things happen when people don't have the knowledge or don't pay attention. So calling them dumb doesn't help at all, what it maybe does is scare people to ask questions on this forum. We all have been at some point that we did not know, that's the meaning of life: learning until we are at the end of our life.

Being said that: the answer to the question of Terry is; yes.
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